tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-824904892689953343.post492780798004153830..comments2023-11-05T03:26:23.460-05:00Comments on High Coup Journal: Editorial: 5-7-5 Does Not Make a HaikuUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-824904892689953343.post-91987485861757762272011-07-20T09:34:54.333-04:002011-07-20T09:34:54.333-04:00After reflecting on David Boyer’s inviting article...After reflecting on David Boyer’s inviting article and learning a great deal from Brian Morton’s comprehensive comments (I enjoyed Vinnie’s and Annie’s entries as well), I almost didn’t post anything. What more could, or really needed to, be added? Okay, here goes:<br /><br />I respect Boyer for his purist position and lucid writing on haiku, along with those wonderful complementary examples. Besides the issues related to a lack of knowledge and understanding about definitions of terms and their evolving relationships -- so cogently pointed out by Morton -- I think that the English word “senryu” may have been generally avoided because it’s difficult to pronounce. Also, is it one, two, or three syllables? In addition, can you believe that “senryu” is not even in The American Heritage Dictionary (4th ed.)?! Furthermore, teachers and others in general may, unconsciously or consciously, still avoid using “senryu” because of its slant heterographic connection to “sin” and “you.” The word “haiku,” on the other hand, sounds and looks like what?<br /><br />And as an afterthot:<br /><br />we are com(fort)ed<br />within (bound)aries, by form --<br />inc(line)d to c(hang)e<br /><br />Geoff M. PopeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-824904892689953343.post-33913262532207300782011-07-07T10:12:13.999-04:002011-07-07T10:12:13.999-04:00If you want to argue that Highcoup publishes "...If you want to argue that Highcoup publishes "unorthodox" haiku, no one will disagree. If you want to argue that they aren't really haiku at all, properly speaking, I will point to Bassho who was actually DEIFIED by the Shinto bureaucracy, and let you battle with verse and fisticuffs against his shade.<br /> <br />If you want to argue that comic rengu existed but that hokku or rengu are not real haiku, and haiku should not be primarily comic, then you cut off your tradition with your own sword and deserve your humorless fate. A common version of this argument is to argue that the comic stuff focusing on human foibles is "really" "senryu" not "haiku" as Boyer seems to in his footnote. This is a terrible misunderstanding. "Senryu" just means "poetry in the style of Senyru Karai" a particular 18th century Japanese poet. Just because something is in the style of Senyru does not mean it isn't ALSO haiku. Further, humorous poetry in the Japanese tradition is certainly going strong even before Senryu, a my Bassho examples show. This would be as dumb as arguing that any humorous poetry in sonnet form should be called a "Shakespeare" and not counted as a sonnet at all, and that we must make a rigourous distinction between "Shakespeares" and "Sonnets" although of course admitting that Shakespeare himself wrote in both styles. Rubbish! This is the spirit of overweening academia seeking to choke out what is living and vibrant in the traditions we have been handed by the multi-faceted humans that wrote before us.<br /><br />If you argue, that the English notion of Haiku refers to the orthodox haiku only, rather than drawing from the broader Japanese tradition, then you are simply misunderstanding the situation on the ground in American education, and who gets to decide the usage of terms in the US. We have no Academie Francaise to delineate normative meanings apart from usage, and you have already lost the battle on usage. Americans regularly use the American term Haiku to refer to both serious haiku and silly haiku,and frequently admire BOTH.<br /><br />Haiku in English today simply includes plenty of examples of both orthodox haiku focusing on exploring the poetic spirit through sketches of keenly perceived moments typically of human- nature interactions, and unorthodox haiku focusing on exploring the poetic spirit through wry wit typically commenting on common life and pop culture. Both of these American poetic forms are exploring the poetic spirit, and both are firmly rooted in the Japanese tradition of Renga-Hokku-Haibum-Haiga-Senryu-Haikai-Renku-Haiku. And in English we frequently use the ENGLISH term Haiku, as a short hand for the whole glorious multiplex tradition. <br /><br />Brian MortonBP Mortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15531863521357661468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-824904892689953343.post-82898460281606815122011-07-07T10:11:33.134-04:002011-07-07T10:11:33.134-04:00Haiku in the Japanese tradition underwent plenty o...Haiku in the Japanese tradition underwent plenty of change over the centuries from renga, to hokku, to haibun and haiga, to renka. Heck, many of the most famous examples of "haiku" weren't even haiku when they were written, but hokku, and were only retroactively called haiku latter on, often as part of Shiki's ideological struggles with the older material in the 19th century. Even as late as the early 20th century it was hokku far more than haiku that was influencing Pound and the Imagists. That's ok anytime we aren't aching over fine distinctions with our academic hats on, anytime we are acting as poets we relish the rich tradition of many styles and forms. <br /><br />So when we acculturate this notion of haiku to a new century or a new language or continent what needs to remain the same? The 17 on? the cut? the seasonality reference? the link between man and nature? The ideological struggles between Zen Buddhism and Pureland Buddhism? Maybe we should build in Shiki' contempt for earlier Japanese poetry in the style, after all he's the one that popularized the term "Haiku" in Japan... Poetry always adapts to the needs of the time and the society, while trying also to remain rooted in its own tradition. So what are the parts of the hokku-rengu-haibum-haiku-etc. tradition that can still meaningfully speak to Americans on the edge of the 21t century? The "recording the essence of a moment keenly perceived, in which nature is linked to human nature"? SURE! Lots of that kind of haiku is still written and still read and still has power and meaning, and still seems to draw from its roots in Japanese poetry. If anything, there is enough of that for it to seem overdone, it has plenty of venues. <br /><br />So the bigger question is does silly, flippant stuff with minimal emphasis on season or man-nature themes genuinely draw from the Japanese poetry tradition of the Renge-Hokku-Haibun-Haiku line? YES! There is a tradition called Haikai-no-renga (unorthodox or comic renga), staunchly defended by Bassho as being part of the poetic spirit (fuga). <br /><br />From Wikipedia "For Bashō, haikai involved a combination of comic playfulness and spiritual depth, ascetic practice and involvement in human society. Bashō’s haikai treated of the ordinary, everyday lives of commoners. In contrast to traditional Japanese poetry, he portrayed figures from popular culture such as the beggar, the traveller and the farmer. In crystallising the newly popular haikai he played a significant role in giving birth to modern haiku, which reflected the common culture."<br /><br />We have classics in the tradition, like Bassho<br /><br />now then, let's go out <br />to enjoy the snow... until<br />I slip and fall! [1688] <br /><br />or<br /><br />even while chopping<br />the dried herbs<br />she’s day-dreaming <br /><br />That last one is from Yaba, one of Bassho's students in a round of Renku from 1693 on Street Hawkers. It has no seasonal reference, no connection between man and nature, no Buddhism on display. Yet it records a precise moment via terse words, it explores the emotional depth of the moment, and does so partly via it's flippant humor.<br /><br />or again Bassho (1685)<br /><br />His go strategy <br />comes to him<br />two days later <br /><br />Good lord, this one could easily have come straight out of Highcoup!BP Mortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15531863521357661468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-824904892689953343.post-82108008010764054302011-07-07T05:46:04.276-04:002011-07-07T05:46:04.276-04:00I think this editorial on haiku is fantastic...and...I think this editorial on haiku is fantastic...and truly does justice to the art of Haiku. I love the line "Haiku don’t tell you how to feel, they show you a scene and hope that you will come along."<br /><br />I have noticed that most of my attempts at haiku turned out to be senryu. I have taken time to look into the art if Japanese short form poetry and tried my hand at several types, yet, I often find myself sitting somewhere, in what looks like a daze, counting syllables in my head. <br />5-7-5! Knowing it is not what makes a haiku has not stopped me from finding myself in a 5-7-5 state of mind...sometimes I find it kick starts my brain! I dig High Coup Journal for so many reasons. One reason being that I have a whole slew of poems that fall in the 5-7-5 but don't quite adhere to traditional haiku standard. Here, at High Coup Journal, those little gems (usually capturing an emotional state) have a place.<br /><br />one from yesterday:<br /><br />I already know<br />that the tongue cannot create<br />what I hold for you.<br /><br />senryu? haiku? pseudoku? You tell me...<br /><br /><br />One more thing. I appreciate Mr. Boyer's knowledgeable and passionate approach to haiku. Also appreciate his ability to write an opinion piece that is neither 'preachy' or judgmental. A true pleasure to read. Thank you to High Coup and Mr. Boyer.<br /><br />AnnieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-824904892689953343.post-83091676528332418952011-07-07T00:53:43.806-04:002011-07-07T00:53:43.806-04:00This post demonstrates exactly why I like High Cou...This post demonstrates exactly why I like High Coup Journal. Not many journals would open up a critical discussion about its content in this way. As a publisher of a short form poetry journal (notice I didn't say haiku journal), I get sucked into this discussion all the time. I think the important thing that Mr. Boyer states is that we shouldn't limit ourselves. I would carry his exhortation to both ends of the haiku spectrum. I enjoy "little jokes or fortune cookie type sentiments" and ones that follow the haiku tradition Mr. Boyer is sticking up for. I don't think most readers of this journal really think the content featured on this site is all haiku has to offer, but for those who might, I applaud High Coup for allowing Mr. Boyer to expand their definitions. I suppose this isn't really a "yea" or "nay" response, but I look forward to what other, more opinionated posters, will have to say.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com